indecision: (Default)
[personal profile] indecision
Can we please stop "warning" for slash? WHY ARE WE STILL DOING THIS? WHY IN 2010 DO I STILL HAVE TO THROW A FIT OVER SHIT LIKE "Warnings: implied homosexuality" (HEY WHY NOT WARN FOR THE PAIRING TOO WHILE YOU'RE AT IT). HOMOSEXUALITY DOES NOT COME WITH A WARNING. IT'S TWO PEOPLE FUCKING AND/OR IN LOVE AND THEY HAPPEN TO BOTH HAVE THE SAME BITS AND ANYONE WHO FINDS THAT THOUGHT SOMEHOW DISTURBING DOES NOT DESERVE A "WARNING" SO CUT IT OUT. I MEAN WHAT THE FUCK. If you want to make it explicit somewhere that your story features GAY SEX OMG, put it in the notes or in the rating, BUT DON'T CALL IT A FUCKING WARNING BECAUSE THAT IS ACTUALLY KIND OF HURTFUL IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW.

Also, to the girl over at this crossover big bang challenge we just signed up for like crazy people who are capable of handling deadlines but hey, you get artwork out of it, right, only the artist-to-author ratio right now is kind of disheartening, so maybe not, anyway to the girl who said about her story that it might include some slash, but only two pages or so, so she could make that optional if people who don't like slash want to skip it--- I don't even know where to start, here, but I think that if your narrative includes two people of the same sex being in love then your narrative includes two people of the same sex being in love and if you feel that this is optional then maybe that's an issue with your narrative, not your audience, AND THERE'S REALLY NOT MUCH MORE I CAN SAY HERE WITHOUT COMING ACROSS AS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT IMPOLITE.

OH MY GOD. I usually try and ignore this shit, but recently the "warnings" for slash have been everywhere and it has just become TOO MUCH TO SWALLOW.

(That's what she said.)

I'm leaving this public because anything else would be stupid, but man I hope it doesn't end up anywhere wanky. THERE WAS JUST SO MUCH RAGE I COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.

Date: 2010-02-16 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 47-trek-47.livejournal.com
I warn for het! :D

Date: 2010-02-16 02:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Well, but we all know that het is icky.

Date: 2010-02-17 03:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 47-trek-47.livejournal.com
Totally icky, indeed. *nods gravely* Ignore the icon, there is no het in the icon. *Jedi handwave*

I have to admit, I'm one of those who uses warnings interchangeably with, like, "perks." So I warn for things that could be either a squick or a kink, you know what I mean?

Date: 2010-02-16 03:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mimesh.livejournal.com
I can always make you artwork for your fics. :)


But on topic, I had a similar rage moment earlier. Every once in a while I go over to the 9th Wonders board and read a little. There is some discussion going on about the Peter/Sylar relationship. And while I don't care for this pairing personally, I'm a bit shocked over some of the reactions. The thing is that most people don't take offense at Peter's character assassination that this pairing implies but at the mere idea of reading the interaction between two guys as romantically. I can understand why people would react strongly to the idea of Peter/Sylar - hell, all of us Nathan fans do - but I think the "ewww" and "shudder" comments are more expressions of homophobia than concern for character violations.

It made me realize that my slash friendly corner of fandom is not really representative. :(

Date: 2010-02-16 08:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
(We ttly had a whole discussion about how awkward and rude it would be to just randomly ask you for art, eep, but since you're offering maybe we could just go "YES PLS WE LOVE YOU MAYBE YOU CAN UM YES HI" and run away? Um. But since you mention it! Maybe you'd like to sign up at [livejournal.com profile] sncross_bigbang and make the artist numbers look a bit less depressing? Or not! Or something else! Anything you do would be amazing! And now of course cm is making noises about never being able to finish this, but she can just shush. *ahem* HI. FLAIL.)

Yeah, I try not to read the comments when fanfic, and especially slash, comes up outside of (my shiny little corner of) fandom, but then I ALWAYS DO ANYWAY, and it's usually some variation of *shudder* or similar. I don't know, usually I think it's just people going, "...but Harry Potter is not gay" and being honestly flabbergasted by the idea, so I try not to let it get to me too much, but yeah. WHATEVER WHATEVER IN CONCLUSION: PORN.

PS. Peter/Sylar. *shudder*

Date: 2010-02-16 10:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mimesh.livejournal.com
I have to admit that I tend to stay away from these big bang things because I can't plan that much ahead and deadlines make me nervous. That's why I did some kind of private big boom with [livejournal.com profile] cadesama instead last summer, where I did some illustrations for her fic.

I would be happy to make something similar for you without actually having to sign up. Since I don't have that much time these days, I would prefer graphics (cover art, wallpaper, icons, manips etc.) over original art drawn by hand but perhaps I can squeeze some quick sketches in. The story in question is one of the epic Heroes/SPN crossovers, yes? Because, I admit that my motivation and inspiration is exponentially larger with Heroes involved. ;D

Ahh, I just checked the sign ups. The Peter/Sam switched at birth story, huh? It would be fun to make 'family portraits' for that one. *g*

Date: 2010-02-16 11:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Oh man, we hear you about deadlines. THEY ARE EVIL. And omg we would be so delighted and honoured and gleeful if you did that! OMG! WE WILL NOT ACTUALLY FORCE YOU TO HAND-DRAW SOMETHING BECAUSE WE'RE GENEROUS LIKE THAT but seriously anything at all would be amazing. Uh, there will be a rough draft at some point? Which you will then get to read firsties! \o/ And also, ♥!

Date: 2010-02-16 03:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elsmoka.livejournal.com
I COMPLETELY AGREE!! IT'S NOTHING TO BE WARNED ABOUT!

Date: 2010-02-16 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Sometimes I wonder if all the Meta Meta Meta last year just made people super-worried about warning for everything and since a lot of fanfic header templates come with a "Warnings: " blank to fill in, they feel they have to? I've seen stuff like "um, language maybe?" or "well there's kissing" which is completely counter to the idea of warnings, but hey, better safe than sorry, right? I don't know, I usually let it slide like I said, but recently it's just been piling up.

I also find it completely flummoxing that this is apparently *still* an issue today. FLUMMOXING.

Date: 2010-02-16 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] carmencatalina.livejournal.com
Oh, thank you for this. A cyber-smooch to you.

Date: 2010-02-16 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Oh, well, thank you! Hi!

Date: 2010-02-16 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anansie-s.livejournal.com
Oh, lord. Optional slash? Wow. Link plz?? Actually wait, don't. I probably shouldn't look at that.

Who are these people??? The only reason I can think of that someone would *want* to write slash but also warn for it is that they (are straight themselves and) consider homosexuality to be a fetish, or at least slightly gross? In which case they should NOT be writing it. GTFO my sexuality, bigots.

And also, people who need to be warned for slash? Are not worthy of reading it. Or writing it.

I don't mean to imply that straight people shouldn't write slash. No. But straight (and flamingly queer) people should at least understand the basic idea of queer solidarity before they write slash.

(Heh, I barely ever warn for incest. Now I feel even more disinclined to warn for it *is spiteful*).

Gahhh. Fandom is so rage-worthy sometimes.

Add to this the 'ew' reaction so many have to femslash (among people who like man-slash) -- which really makes me sad. I understand that people have preferences, and that's fine and understandable. But I also get the sense that there are a lot of homophobic people who fetishise boyslash *and* at the same time are grossed out by femslash (because they're hypocrites).

Femslash is considered so warning-worthy that it needs its own category. 'Slash'=normal (i.e. male). 'Femslash'=icky women.

Date: 2010-02-16 09:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Oh wow, the comment is gone now? Um, whups? Now I feel kinda bad. Sorry, person who left that comment!

See, usually I give people the benefit of the doubt and just assume they understand "Warnings" to mean "here is where I make sure people with other preferences than mine will not be surprised" and not, you know, "where you let people know that your story includes a rape scene because that might genuinely upset some readers" WHICH IS WHAT WARNINGS ARE ACTUALLY THERE FOR. So I'm seldomly this rageful! But, um, yes.

It's weird, I've seen people change their entire, for want of a better word, warning policy to make absolutely sure readers won't be upset, which I think is a commendable result of all the discussions, but on the other hand the term has become so absolutely wishy-washy as to not mean anything anymore. Like, I can't even call bigotry because most of these people are probably just genuinely unsure whether two (straight-in-canon) boys kissing might not be everyone's cuppa. Which, hey, still pretty upsetting, I'll give you that.

And wow, I didn't know people had an 'ew' reaction to femslash! I just thought it was a more general mood of, well, disinterest? I mean, I barely read f/f myself, and rarely actively seek it out. BUT GIRLPARTS ARE AWESOME WHAT WHAT. I EVEN READ HET SOMETIMES!!!!1!

Ahem.

Date: 2010-02-16 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anansie-s.livejournal.com
Its disappearance probably doesn't have anything to do with this. And yes, it's better to give people the benefit of doubt, but that whole pandering to anti-slash people by delineating it so that people can skip it? kinda suspect.

I'm sort of iffy on warnings policies. I mean, I've gotten upset at coming across rape/extreme violence in fics without warning, and believe that should be warned for. But with (consensual) incest, I feel like the pairing is warning enough? (although some people may not know the characters).

And wow, I didn't know people had an 'ew' reaction to femslash! I just thought it was a more general mood of, well, disinterest?

You're probably right, it's more likely that I'm oversensitive.

Date: 2010-02-17 01:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
I sometimes have to remind myself that some people actually draw the line at, say, 16-year-olds or brothers or, ahaha, real people, still. (Oh hey, Jonas Brothers fandom combines all three!) And I can get that, but I'm seriously hoping people at some point will stop "warning" for every little thing and reserve that word for triggery things. Lalala wishes and horses.

And well, not saying "disinterest" isn't a problem in itself, but I'm in no position to complain about that, ahem. *hides*

Date: 2010-02-17 03:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anansie-s.livejournal.com
haha, i think it's awesome that the jonas brothers have this massive incest-focused fandom. [livejournal.com profile] dodificus's recs are usually really good, a while ago i read a jonas fic she recd and was kinda stunned ... i haven't heard their music, all i know is they're meant to be virgins? i prefer the fic versions of them.

Date: 2010-02-16 07:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] channel42.livejournal.com
lol @ that's what she said. I c u Michael Scott.

And I get more annoyed with the "don't read it if you can't handle the man sex" and other similar warnings than the general "warning: SLASH!!!1". The former sounds so damn abrasive that it usually turns me off from reading.

Date: 2010-02-16 09:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Haha, or warnings for "hot smexing" or similar. I THINK I'LL PASS THANK YOU.

Date: 2010-02-16 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leksa.livejournal.com
Off-topic & random:

HEY WHY NOT WARN FOR THE PAIRING TOO WHILE YOU'RE AT IT

gave me the lulz, as I have a distinct memory from the olden days of popslash of someone (I have no idea who) summing up a related conversation as, paraphrase, "yeah, non-con, underage, whatevers, we don't really care, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WARN IF THERE'S GOING TO BE JuC."

On topic, less random:

THIS x many x many. (Also, jeez, the femslash thing pointed up in comments above!)

Date: 2010-02-16 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
Ahahaha! I just had to ask cm what JuC stands for, since my little monkey brain only provided me with Justin and Chris and I knew that would be Timbertrick! *gives self cookie* But, yes. Ahaha! CLEARLY.

I feel that I should read more femslash, maybe? You should rec me something. Something that's not 10,000 words, preferably. *ahem* Please and thank you? :-)

Date: 2010-02-17 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leksa.livejournal.com
heeee, Timbertrick cookies for you! (I think I may still have Timbertrick as an interest in my userinfo. I really don't want to go check.)

But, uh, you really shouldn't be asking me for girlslash recs - a) because I never bookmark anything which makes for a bad reccer, b) because I read sadly little girlslash. I used to read more, but, IDK. These days I only read what my flist writes and recs, and then buddyslash epics and bad RPF with too much processing of emotions, and none of the above come in girlslashy variations, it seems. (So halfly I ttly share your feeling! That I shd read more of it! And half of me is getting old and lazy and thinking that life is too short to be reading, you know, any fanfic just because you "should". :D)

But I will see if I can come up with anything & get back to you possibly.

Date: 2010-02-16 08:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miss-miso.livejournal.com
I saw that last night (the "implied homosexuality" thing) and was horrified. I then tried to figure out what looked so wrong about it - I decided it was because it implies that the warning isn't for explicit sex as such, but for *gasp* general gayness. I really hope that's not reflective of the author's feelings, but either way it was pretty offensive. But on going back to check my fics (which I did last night because I was feeling so unsettled), I was shocked to see that I've been guilty of using the 'warnings' section to given people a heads-up about explicit content (for example, on one of my fics, the warning was: "sexual content, ranging from vague to explicit, including het, slash, incest"). None of those things are personally offensive to me (well, het, slash and consensual sibling incest isn't), and you're right, it really should be included in the ratings or the A/N as you suggested. That little "implied homosexuality" thing has really given me a wake-up call about that.

Date: 2010-02-16 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
I'm starting to think that the "Warnings: " section is just really misunderstood, maybe. I don't have a clear definition for it either, and I don't think I would be offended by someone "warning" for explicit sexual content (ESPECIALLY NOT YOU, HI), but I guess from a meta standpoint lumping together say, gay sex and incest might imply some things that you didn't actually want to imply? On the other hand, it's just a fic header! On the other other hand, people get prickly about things. Obviously. *Kermit arms*

PS. YAY INCEST FICTIONAL CONSENSUAL SIBLING INCEST. \o/

Date: 2010-02-16 11:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miss-miso.livejournal.com
I guess from a meta standpoint lumping together say, gay sex and incest might imply some things that you didn't actually want to imply?

Absolutely. You're right, and I'm sorry, and heh, with the example I gave, I could be implying that sex in general is taboo, and should never be enjoyed or spoken about ever! And you're also right about the warning thing being inconsistent. In the strictest sense, your definition is correct: it should just be for death/violence/dub-non con/spoilers etc, but with all of the bullshit last year everything went all screwy. Now the warnings are all so benign that they barely register anymore- when I'm looking at fics to check out, it's more like..."oh cool, slash with some d/s! Just what I felt like today." The only reason this one stood out to me was because it was so unusual.

OTOH, I had a rant to Cade about a fic I read a couple if months back that didn't have appropriate warnings, and aside from being very badly written (I don't know why I was reading it; it was multi-chaptered and I wanted to see where the hell it was going, I guess) there was an un-warned for brutal, repeated rape of a young character (Peter, supposedly 18 but written like he was emotionally 13) that really upset me. I have to find a happy medium between that and being over cautious (because, really, do I give a shit if someone reads my fics and gets offended by a bit of fisting or light bondage? No! Such people are dullards, and not worthy of my concern).

I'll still keep the only two het fics I've ever written where they are though: under an flock with a warning in the header. Just because.

Date: 2010-02-17 12:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mumblemutter.livejournal.com
It's just that the word "warning" is so loaded; as soon as you use it in the context of sexuality, you imply some sort of judgement, even if you don't mean to? Inconvenient! Maybe we should come up with a new word.

We are pretty much consistently awful with warnings, by the way, mostly because we don't know how to tell people that, um, this will not be a very happy fic? Like, the first Peter/Sylar was some pretty dark stuff, if you think about it, but we were basically like, HERE. FIC. READ. Which is how it usually goes. We've also rated some rather heavy stuff as "PG-13ish" because cm felt it didn't have enough porn for an R, so we're just as confused as everybody else, really.

(Also I think we know which fic you're talking about. *cough* Oh god yes.)

Date: 2010-02-17 01:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miss-miso.livejournal.com
OMG, what the hell is wrong with lj lately? It just ate another of my comments. Gah!
 
Yeah, anyway. The shorter version of what I said was: *nods head vigorously*. I have had a tendency to 'warn' for sex, both het and slash, which I will henceforth resolve not to do again because a) it's redundant if the rating is appropriate and the pairing is clearly marked and b) you're right, it may imply that I'm passing judgement on straight or gay folks. Which leaves being bi (a state of being I'm comfortable with, but by no means do I think it's The Only Way To Live) or...being asexual or celibate I guess? Which is fine too, I hasten to add. They're are all perfectly cool choices, but not something I want to force on people, y'know.
 
We've also rated some rather heavy stuff as "PG-13ish" because cm felt it didn't have enough porn for an R, so we're just as confused as everybody else, really.
 
Hmm...I've not come across anything in your fics that was shocking or awful? But I guess there may be some sensitive souls out there who might. Who knows? But you'd never, ever produce something as dire and unexpectedly horrific as the fic we were talking about. Everything you guys come up with is thoughtful and beautiful. In fact, I didn't even notice the lack of warnings on your fics - it just shows how little attention I pay to it normally. And that's just another indicator that I should think about it more carefully. Because, as you say, the word 'warning' is loaded. I can't think of an alternative one though: on tv here, they use the word "Advisory" followed by the specifics (sexual content, language, violence, supernatural themes etc) so that people who don't like those things can avoid them. But I'm not sure if that's a neutral term either. What do you think?

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